Are Women Judges Fairer? 9 Questions for One of America’s Top Female Lawyers
As Hearings Begin for Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson, an Exclusive Interview with the First Woman to Lead the American Bar Association
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Roberta Ramo
Judge Ketanji Jackson Brown faces the Senate this week in her high-stakes hearings to become the next associate justice of the Supreme Court. Among other issues, her nomination has raised important questions about the role of women in the law and on the bench. No one has more experience in answering these questions than Roberta Ramo. Roberta was the first woman to serve as president of the American Bar Association and the first woman to serve as president of American Law Institute. In 2015 she won the prestigious ABA Medal. She's also family. Her son is my Council of Dads and I've known her as a devoted mother and grandmother for 20 years. She agreed to answer questions about the meaning of this week's hearing exclusively for The Nonlinear Life.
Why did you become a lawyer? What was the hardest part of being a woman in the profession at that time?
I really never thought about practicing law when I applied to law school. I wanted to be the president of a university and thought the only way a woman could do that was by being successful outside the academy. Lucky for me, being a university president is one of the very hardest jobs in the U.S. these days, which I managed to avoid.
I fell in love with being a lawyer in two steps. The first was during the late 60s when I saw what heroes so many American lawyers were during the civil rights struggles. It seemed then and now a patriotic way to spend one’s life. The second was when I worked in private practice and enjoyed the clients.
Roberta Ramo as one of the officers of the Edwin F. Mandel Legal Aid Association (1966-1967)
What was the hardest part? Being a woman! I had a legal fellowship taken away from me because I was pregnant. Many firms came right out and said they would not hire a woman lawyer. One of my heroes was the senior partner of the first firm I worked for in Albuquerque. He called me into his office one day and said that a client had complained about my work. While I was sitting there, he called the client and said he had checked and my work was just fine. He listened a bit, then said, “So the problem is that you don’t want a girl [his word] to do your legal work?” Pause. Well, you have a choice: She does your work, or you go to another firm!” You can only imagine how much that meant to me.
2. You broke multiple glass ceilings, including becoming the first woman president of the American Bar Association. How is the legal profession different today because nearly half of all lawyers are women?
The biggest impact may be outside the profession. Seeing so many able and powerful women practicing law has given the world a chance to see that women are capable of being strong, learned, articulate, courageous, and impactful in every area.
Having said that, it’s sadly true that women lawyers with children still often struggle to have a meaningful professional life. I hope that one of the positive things to come out of this terrible pandemic is the realization that with technology, many legal tasks can be done on more flexible schedules, part-time, at home, by women and men with young children. I worked part-time until our younger child—our lawyer daughter—graduated from high school, but my hours didn’t keep me from managing a law firm or having a full pro bono life.
The real heroes these days are those lawyers who are single mothers. I don’t know how they do what they do so wonderfully. None of this would have been possible for me, without a completely supportive feminist husband. I shared that lucky break with both Justice O’Connor and Justice Ginsburg. I’m also thrilled to see how many young men today want to be fathers as involved in their children’s lives as mothers are.
3. I’ve seen studies that women lawyers are tougher and fairer; they’re most respected in the courtroom and less respected. What’s your experience?
Times have changed. When I started, a judge once took me down to the clerk’s office and proclaimed to all, “And she thinks she is a lawyer.” Now, I rarely—but not never—have a negative experience that I think is based on my sex. As for the profession as a whole, I would say that women and minority lawyers—especially those that are both—may be tougher because they have had to fight for respect. And women on the bench I do think are sometimes fairer because they have each felt what it means to be treated unfairly.
4. You’ve had a personal relationship with most of the women who served on the Supreme Court. What one quality do they have in common?
Of the four women justices I have known, I’d say the single quality they share is that they’re brilliant without being arrogant.
I remember tears coming to my eyes when I read that Justice O’Connor had been appointed. Knowing her and Justice Ginsburg well, along with Justices Sotomayor and Justice Kagan, somewhat, I have been moved to see up close the human qualities that animate them, not just their legal acumen. Justice O’Connor decades ago recognized that the failure of civics education was undermining democracy and helped form an entire educational curricula called iCivics. Justice Ginsburg traveled all over the country, often interrupting her vacations so that lawyers and regular American citizens could hear her speak. I once asked her how she selected which schools to give graduation speeches at; she told me she tried to go places where no one had a chance regularly to meet or hear a Supreme Court justice. It’s important to note that the male justices I have known best--Stevens, Breyer, and Kennedy--all share these traits.
5. Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson has a stirring family story. She grew up in Miami; her parents attended segregated schools and historically Black colleges; she was a debater; attended Harvard and Harvard Law School; was both a public defender and a judge. Do you know her personally, and can you share your impressions?
I am honored to say that I do know her. She is a brilliant thinker about the law, and her style of expressing her legal views is persuasive without being confrontational. She is unafraid to ask questions or put forth solutions to legal problems. She is interested in learning as a continuing part of her life in a changing world.
I am astonished by those who suggest in any way that she is lacking in any qualification for being on the Court. The characterization of her as a “liberal” misses the mark. There are not many on the Court who have her experience as a trial judge, which is important in the work the Court does. There are not many who have had a chance to handle both civil and criminal cases and to do so in private practice, as a public defender, and on the bench. Given her extraordinary brilliance and accomplishments, I should add that she’s also not arrogant and is well aware of the power she wields as a judge and the responsibility that comes with that power.
Ketanji Brown Jackson
6. Judge Jackson has been criticized as being an “affirmative action nominee,” a member of the “radical Left,” as being “soft on crime” and “pro-criminal.” She’s also been asked to produce her transcripts and LSAT scores. You’ve been through a lot of hearings. Do you find these criticisms fair game, or do you find them racist and/or sexist in some way?
I don’t remember anyone asking to see Justice Kavanagh’s transcripts, nor Justice Gorsuch’s. One must wonder about the motive behind asking this one nominee. As for being “soft on crime,” what could that possibly mean? Our great legal system requires that those charged with a crime be represented by counsel. It is our obligation as lawyers, when called upon, to undertake representation of those charged with a crime. John Adams famously defended the British soldiers charged with murder when they killed some of the Patriots in a skirmish. He got them off but was not accused of being “soft” on the British nor kicked out of the Revolutionary movement.
Judge Jackson represented the clients her position at the time required. As a judge, there is no record of her being anything but fair and able. Those who are lawyers in the Congress should all understand and support the ethical duty of every lawyer to represent criminal defendants. She is, in fact, superbly qualified in every way—by intellect, integrity, experience, and temperament.
7. How many justices should be on the Supreme Court?
Nine. I think any effort to expand the Court would end up in a partisan tit for tat. Because it would take a Constitutional Amendment, I don’t think the other fixes work either. You didn’t ask this question, but since lifetime tenure is in the Constitution, we might encourage retirement by adding a financial incentive for retiring at age 78 or 80, perhaps two years salary in a lump or an enhanced pension, with the understanding that the other benefits would stay in place. That move would not require a Constitutional Amendment and might encourage more turnover.
8. If you could change one thing about American law, what would it be?
There are three (sorry!) issues I think equally troublesome:
1) Access to the Courts: The Congress should vastly increase the funding for civics education and the National Legal Services Corporation, which provides legal aid.
2) Devote more resources to our entire system of justice in the state courts, both civil and criminal, which are so underfunded that they struggle to serve the needs of our citizens.
3) Do a current study seeking to determine whether the partisan election of judges has diminished the public trust in our legal system and reduced the quality of those willing to stand for election.
9. What advice would you give a woman entering law today?
It is a wonderful way to spend your professional life. First, devote yourself to becoming a first-rate lawyer. Second, if you have a family, just keep searching for a place that allows you to practice and to raise your children in whatever style you wish. Finally, don’t be deterred by bad experiences you might have—fight them and use them to make you both stronger and more understanding of others.
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